Irfan and Richard joined forces in Birmingham to talk to Ninder Johal. He is the Managing Director of the long established Nachural Records. It is the label that released the biggest bhangra tune of all time, in terms of mainstream success, Mundian To Bach Ke. The desitunes4u duo fires some hot questions but he is on guard and hits back with super fast responses.

The comments of each of them have been colour co-ordinated to help you distinguish who is saying what. The following key can be used as a guide to help you with this as well.

Irfan: For those of us that don't know Ninder Johal, give us an intro!

Ninder: I run the record company Nachural Records and I also play the tabla for Achanak.

Richard: How long have you run the label Nachural?

Ninder: I started in 91 so 13 years, long haul, many tribulations, many high points and low points.

Irfan: You were the man who re-released Panjabi Mc's Legalised approximately 5 years after it's first release. What made you do that?

Ninder: Yeah, it released in the Asian market in 1998 and then in the mainstream in 2003 (5 years later). It wasn't a case of re-releasing it. It was released in the Asian market in 1998. I firmly believed that that track and the genre in particular had mainstream appeal. There are many other artists that could also appeal. Achanak started to do a lot of gigs abroad and it was obvious from those gigs that one day it would cross over and it was not a question of if but when. Panjabi Mc's 'Mundian To Bach Ke' probably had the most cross over appeal of all the tracks in the genre. I had been banging the mainstream for 8/9 years. I believed back in 1991/1992 that it had crossover appeal and it was just a question of time.

Irfan: Now that album was truly an international release with it reaching every everywhere on the globe! I saw the album in Turkey, with the cover fully translated in the Turkish language, myself of all places, off the top of your head which countries saw an official 'Legalised' release?

Ninder: Every country except the North and South Pole, and China because 99% of things sold in China are counterfeit.

Richard: Which obscure countries would you say it was released?

Ninder: Everywhere else it was released including Ukraine, Russia, Poland, Greece, Italy, Turkey, Spain, Portugal, Africa, United Arab Emirates, Mexico, Brazil, Paraguay, USA, Canada, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Thailand, Indonesia and Malaysia.

Mundian To Bach Ke 'Scandanavian' Release Cover

Irfan: How easy or hard was it to get a worldwide release?

Ninder: Once the track had got some momentum it wasn't that hard. The problem was the 5 years before that.

Irfan: So what did you do to make them buy it in the end?

Ninder: I had to go underground and put it on compilations where I knew later it would catch on. It was a lot of hard work with a lot of doors slammed in my face and I mean a lot of doors slammed in my face! I was seen as the man with some bhangra material. People would say straight to my face 'No one wants this!' They would say that there are no English lyrics in this. Where I differ from your businessman is that I am a musician myself. If you enjoy the music then you will cross that financial barrier because you believe.

Irfan: So once the ball was rolling was it just like a spiral effect?

Ninder: Yes, we did have a few bidding wars. So it was nice to see something that I was told would never cross over then having people fighting over it.

Irfan: Did you ever imagine it would be so successful?

Ninder: When based on a track record of not being able to convince people over the years it was pleasant surprise to be quite honest with you.

Irfan: So what advice would you give to someone looking to get a track out into the mainstream?

Ninder: From 1999 til 2003 I would have said it would be difficult. I would have said too many barriers but now anyone can do it and I mean anyone can do it. You got Juggy D and Jay Sean doing the business, you got Raghav doing the business, Panjabi MC did the business and Rishi Rich is doing the business. So now it's not one person anymore so it's become easier to break the barrier. So like I said anyone can do it now.

Irfan: How much credit do you give yourself for breaking that barrier?

Ninder: I will let other people make that judgement. I feel if I've done nothing else then I have been part of the process.

Mundian To Bach Ke on 'Planet Pop' compilation released in South Africa

Irfan: Going back to the big-tune 'Mundian To Bach Ke.' How did you manage to get Jay-Z to remix it?

Ninder: That was quite comical because as soon as the single started to pick up momentum it started to shake a few heads in the US. Jay-Z heard the track and contacted us to say he wanted it on his album.

Richard: Personally?

Ninder: No not personally! Jay-Z goes though about 12 lawyers before you hear about it. He contacted our lawyers and the process went on for a while until we came to a deal.

Irfan: From a financial perspective it's been said Panjabi Mc didn't get any direct benefits from the track or the Legalised album. Care to comment?

Ninder: I think you ought to ask him that. I think this is not the environment where I should talk about his financial affairs.

Richard: So how about you personal financial reward from it, would you say you were over the moon with it?

Ninder: Both me and Panjabi Mc benefited.

Irfan: I know it would have increased Panjabi Mc's profile and he could charge more now for gig but did he get any direct benefit from it?

Ninder: I really can't comment. I don't have his bank details anyway.

Irfan: It has been claimed by the Kray Twinz that they were involved in the production of 'Mundian To Bach Ke.' As it was recorded in Nachural Studios, do you want to clear that up once and for all?

Ninder: Nope, it was not recorded in my studio. The contract was with Nachural and Panjabi Mc so how he put the track together you need to ask Panjabi Mc. He uses whomever he wants to use.

Irfan: Usually, the album is recorded in the studio of the label, right?

Ninder: No, what I believe is that you allow the artist to record as they see fit. You don't make them do it from a given studio. If you have a few artists and put them all the same studio with the same engineers then essentially you get the same sound. By making an artist travel to somewhere like saying Birmingham when they are more comfortable somewhere else does not make sense. So from day one I've never made them do this.

Irfan: Switching things another one of favourite topics - Sahara!

Ninder: Wonderful band.

Irfan: Sahara had been signed to Nachural for a long time. Now what's the script with them leaving and joining Untouchables mid-contract?

Ninder: They completed 2 albums of a 5-album deal.

Irfan: So how did the scenario take place with them leaving.

Ninder: I think you need to ask Sahara that! The reason I can't comment is because they were the ones that made the decision to switch labels.

Irfan: So you didn't drop them from the label?

Ninder: I think the best way to answer is 'ask them!'

Richard: So if they came back tomorrow and said they wanted to finish the 3 albums left on the contract what would you say?

Ninder: Hypothetical situation, can't comment.

Irfan: I interviewed Sahara a few months or so back and they said to expect an announcement soon. Any news on that?

Ninder: That announcement was just to say they moved from Nachural Records.

Irfan: From a legal perspective is that it as far as you are concerned?

Ninder: All the legal details were clarified and confirmed to everybody's satisfaction.

Irfan: So would you say that Sahara is happy?

Ninder: I think they are very happy and I am more than happy myself. Life is too short to get stressed out.

Irfan: They have been rumours that Nachural Records as a label are history. Do you want to comment on such rumours?

Ninder: Those rumours maybe referring to the fact that I haven't released a product in 24 months with the exception of DV8. I have no obligation to release a product every other week. I like to release a product when I think the market is correct and an artist is in a good position to release something.

Irfan: So why's the market not correct at the moment?

Ninder: Because to two huge problems that we have. Firstly we have huge piracy and counterfeiting and secondly we have downloading. That is why I decided that I am going to hold some of the investment back. You have to wait for the market to move in your favour in order to realise your investment point.

Irfan: So you're hoping for some action from the BPI (British Phonographic Industry)?

Ninder: They are taking action is the USA at the moment against people who do this and they will be doing so in the UK soon.

Irfan: So what do you mean by 'they' - the actual downloaders?

Ninder: Yes, they are drawing up measures to do that. So we'll have to wait and see how successful that is.

Irfan: To be honest with you I can't see any legislation, which is going to stop it from happening.

Ninder: What it will do is will drive people who invest in the scene as they will be better investing their money in other things because they will be getting a better rate of return. We already seeing that now we have a plethora of new labels are popping up. What's happening is artists are having to self fund their own projects. They come to the market place with no infrastructure and no experience.

Ninder Johal

Irfan: Everybody has to start from zero, as did Nachural Records. In my view the amateurs, the people that don't have the know-how or the financial backing then they will not survive. Ninder: Yeah but in meantime the market is being flooded with sub-standard products. Irfan: Yeah they seems to be an emphasis on the quantity of releases rather than the quality of releases. Ninder: The quantity is as a result of many labels entering the market place. Where as in the old days you had four labels controlling the market and controlling the circulation of new releases. You've now got a multitude of labels and the flooding of products into the market. Irfan: I think one of the reasons artists have decided to go with new labels or set up shop on their own is from getting mistreated by a few labels - would you go along with that?

Ninder: If that is what they feel then you can't disagree with them.

Irfan: You hear stories that this has happened and that has happened and they are stories but at the end of the say if artists are getting mistreated and there are only 4 labels they can only jump ship round them all once and at the end of it they think...

Ninder: You gotta remember they everyone that sets up hasn't been affected by the major labels. You've got one flip of the coin where they have been affected and the other flip of the coin is that no one wants them or their album. So the only result then is to release it themselves.

Irfan: What about established artists that are doing that. Say for example Taz [Cyberphonic Records].

Ninder: Taz is a fantastic artist.

Irfan: I'm sure there are labels that are interested in signing him but he's decided to set a label up himself.

Ninder: Fine, he's not the only one. I mean if you look the mainstream once an artist gets to a certain level in the industry then they set up their own labels anyway and get the distribution done, I mean that's not a new phenomena. Where I am saying it's different is that we are having artists with no background and no experience setting up labels and if you multiple that across the board.

Irfan: I know what you are saying as in the last month you can name a dozen albums coming out from bhangra and like you were saying when I was chatting to you the other day on the phone it still is a niche market and it's not a full on market.

Ninder: Yeah and the market can't accommodate so many releases. The shopkeeper and the consumer can distinguish between what is a worthwhile release and what isn't.

Irfan: Some of the shopkeepers; I mean a lot of the Asian shops are just rental stores and they selling CD's on the side and they don't know about the actual product and they are just buying what they are given basically.

Ninder: Shopkeepers treat music as a commodity. Some shopkeepers will treat it like bananas and carrots. I'm talking some not all. This usual happens in market stalls where they sell a product and it can look like any other just like an apple or grape. The customer needs to have enough knowledge to know what's good and bad.

Irfan: A problem with that there isn't very many independent journalism within our community. People are writing their own reviews and putting them out in newspapers, magazines and websites which is misleading the public. Would you go along with that?

Ninder: People are putting across what they think and to add to that the whole industry is fragmented.

Irfan: We've touch on this already with you talking what the BPI may down but coming from an IT background I just think it's not happening. If you look at the increase in broadband and file sharing programs, even chat programs have integrated file transfer facilities, which the BPI cannot track. Basically it's child's play to download mp3's. Two kids on broadband can send each other an album within 20 minutes. The BPI isn't the FBI and they aren't going to pick up on this.

Ninder: The BPI is concentrating on websites which put up downloads. We had the old cassette players and there has always been domestic piracy. You are never going to make it any easier. The problem with having duplication machines is as a business investment it's no longer going to viable. If that happens you will see no major record company investing in the industry and if that happens it will be clear to see. You can see the signs already. If that happens then the only way you can make money is from gigs and the mainstream business model has now changed it now not only covers percentages from records and CD's but companies are announcing that they now want percentages of gigs. They are now recognizing that you can't just make money from CD's. What the consequences long-term of this change in the business model are going to be very interesting to watch. I would say the signs are dire.

Irfan: In a nutshell what is your view on the desi music industry as it stands?

Ninder: I think that music is fantastic. I've travelled the world and seen many countries where Panjabi Mc has done well. It can be a fantastic experience and the Asian community is as talented as any other. I would encourage anyone if they think they have the talent to do it. What I feel is investment needs to happen.

Richard: So you feel record companies should be doing more?

Ninder: Yeah, otherwise we are not going to see the creativeness.

Irfan: Talking about the mainstream would you say that a lot of Asian artists are jumping on the mainstream bandwagon and they are not really up to it?

Ninder: I cannot really make a comment, who is fit to stay in it will be decided the market place. Good luck to anybody, it doesn't have to be from by label it could be any label because it all helps each other. The more the better.

Irfan: What is Ravi Rai's role within Nachural Records?

Ninder: Ravi Rai plays a dual role. He does his production but I also tell him to keep his eyes and ears open for any talented individuals.

Irfan: You have given him the power to sign artists - right?

Ninder: Yeah A & R, if he spots anyone exceptional then he will be instructed to pursue. I wouldn't take anyone on. They have to be talented. If I am going to invest in someone they has to be return. I mean I can't just take on any Tom, Dick and Harry.

Irfan: Based on what you've just said how did you first come across Panjabi Mc. I mean when did you think this guys going to be good?

Richard: When did you think he's going to be No 1 in so many countries?

Ninder: When he put a demo tape on it was fresh; it was different to anything on the market. He's very single minded. He had the talent and the single minded-ness and to put the two together.

Irfan: Some of his stuff was way ahead of it times. I mean you listen to Legalised now and it's sounds better than anything out there.

Ninder: He has a knack of spotting a good melody. It's all about at the end of the say tunes and melodies.

Irfan: Like you can spot talent?

Ninder: He can spot a tune.

Richard: So whose better him spotting a tune or you spotting talent?

Ninder: He's better (Everybody Laughs).

Irfan: You've got Sonia Panesar signed to your label. How is she getting on with her album?

Ninder: We've identified her for a specific world music market. You have many avenues for getting into the mainstream and that is the one that we have earmarked for her. It will be a slow journey but fruitful at the end. She's not a bhangra artist so it will be different.

Irfan: A new artist; what benefits do they get from the signing to Nachural Records. I mean what can you give them that others can't?

Ninder: Two words, 'the mainstream' - if the talent is there as the infrastructure is their to deliver. Secondly, being a musician I am more inclined to invest in the artist for the long term and not drop them after one album.

Irfan: You've got a lot of international contacts as it where, would you go along with that?

Ninder: I know a few people [Everybody Laughs].

Irfan: Apart from Ravi and Sonia whom else do you currently have on you books at Nachural?

Ninder: As you know DV8's debut album has just come out - it is being well received for a debut album. Achanak have also completed their album and this will be released in the European market very soon as the band has a huge following due to extensive touring. We are obviously very pleased with the signing of Tigerstyle who I honestly believe are going to prove to be an exceptional signing. Their album is also earmarked for late summer. Also, in the pipeline, is a newly signed act called Sanjay Johal aka K2K - a fantastic fresh new talent from Birmingham.

Tigerstyle with Ninder Johal

In addition to the bhangra market - Nachural have also set up a pop-orientated imprint that as signed its first all western pop act called Frixion. They are currently in the studio and the plan is to license them to a major in the UK and worldwide. This will be an interesting project in that Nachural will be entering unchartered waters in terms of the genre.

Finally, we have also signed Al Catraz - a UK based hip-hop act and he is also in the studio. This project follows the Frixion model.

Richard: So you've conquered bhangra now?

Ninder: I wouldn't say I conquered it. I had a go at it.

Irfan: Any final words to the desitunes4u.com readers worldwide?

Ninder: I would like to thank you for the opportunity. Secondly, I would like people to refer to legitimate websites such as yours. I don't think they should go to a site that encourages illegal downloading or encourage counterfeiting and that's my strongest message to the people.

That concludes the interview, a big thanks to Ninder for taking time out to chat to us. For more information on Nachural Records be sure to check out the labels brand new website at www.nachural.co.uk.